Commons:Deletion requests/© CIT 1996

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This deletion debate is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

© CIT 1996[edit]

Train tickets with this background are typically marked "© CIT 1996", so it would seem that CIT considers the background to be copyrighted. CIT is a Swiss organisation, so I would assume that Switzerland is the source country for the background. COM:TOO#Switzerland doesn't contain any useful examples here, and the background is clearly above the threshold of originality of several European countries such as Austria and the United Kingdom. Without any useful information from Switzerland, we will have to delete all of the images. --Stefan4 (talk) 19:54, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Symbol keep vote.svg Keep Is it a joke ? Why a swiss company should copyright tickets of the French nationalized company SNCF ? I dont see any mark "© CIT 1996" at least on the 3 photos I uploaded : File:Ticket SNCF local lines.jpg, File:Ticket SNCF main lines.jpg, File:Ticket SNCF-TER.jpg --Tangopaso (talk) 20:18, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Because a Swiss organisation is responsible for lots of international railway coordination? On the first two images, the "© CIT 1996" copyright notice is at the bottom-left, a bit to the left of the text "Prix par voyageur". I can't find the copyright notice on the third one, but it clearly has the same background art. --Stefan4 (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
OK. I didnt see. I apologize. But is it not a case of De minimis ? And it seems that CIT is present on tickets of national railways such as SNCF. But not on TER railways which are managed by the French regions and not nationaly. I did not see the © on my File:Ticket SNCF-TER.jpg, neither on File:Billet TER.jpg or File:Billet de train, TER Nord-Pas-de-Calais, 2013.jpg. It is on File:TER Opale one day Pas.jpg, but in fact this is a SNCF ticket, not TER one. --Tangopaso (talk) 22:20, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Are you saying that the ticket is irrelevant to the image? --Stefan4 (talk) 22:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Weightless fake reasons again. Created by someone, who upload no own pictures, just mass of unfree logos. Last year I decided: i won't take part with my wotes in the sily games of copyright maniac "pseudoauthors". Beroesz (talk) 06:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Some background information:
CIV is a old universal (at least European) railway convention whereby every railway company or agent could issue a ticket from any station, of all the participating railway companies, to any other station on the combined network. It was a defined format with a back and front CIV cover and the route details inside. The ticket was only valid with the cover. Any participating railway company or agent could issue those intenational tickets with a validation stamp. The data used to handwritten and the price calculated manualy. De price is calculated on the basis of the distance international tarif of the national sections. A full price ticket was normaly valid for two months and allowed travel-breaks along the way. With automation the handwritten version was replaced with printed tickets but covers where still obligatory. (I have handwritten tickets from travels in Eastern Europe in 2003) Many national railway companies made separate agreements with neigbouring railways to issue international tickets under their national ticket format, but under CIV conditions. In the Netherlands it is posible to buy tickets at the ticketmachines for destinations in the neighbouring countries. It looks the same as a normal NS paper ticket. At these kind of tickets the word "CIV" is printed but cannot be considered a logo. For long distanc travel the international tickets with CIV conditions are fast disappearing with the high speed trains (TGV, Thalys, Eurostar) wich are only accessible with global price tickets only valid for a specific train.Smiley.toerist (talk) 08:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Note: CIT is not the same as CIV, but the mention CIV is frequently mentioned on the tickets. For example on a Antwerpen Roosendaal ticket is printed "CIV 1088". Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
The problem is the background, not logos (although logos may be an additional problem with some of them). The background was designed by CIT (an organisation), whereas CIV is an international agreement between train companies. --Stefan4 (talk) 22:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
This discussion is irrelevant as in many cases railway tickets are not PD, as the railway company logo's and background are on the tickets. Some images can be deleted, but not for the reason stated. But this is an other discussion and should not be treated here. Remove this delete request and make an other one with valid arguments.Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:21, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Symbol keep vote.svg Keep "it would seem that".. start asking this company to make sure what is really copyrighted or not before thinking without any serious proof. Clicsouris (talk) 17:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Symbol keep vote.svg Keep Idem than Clicsouris. Then, on Commons:TOO#France, I can read « imprint of the personality of the author ». Enfin, pour terminer, en français parce que mon anglais est très basique, cela aurait été bien plus constructif que vous demandiez directement à l'organisme en question s'il était possible de téléverser des scans de billets de train sur Commons, et aurait permis de trancher la question de manière nette. Là, vous débarquez avec de vagues suppositions mais sans rien prouver, ce qui est très discutable. À titre personnel, j'ai plus d'une centaine de billets de train parce que je voyage beaucoup pour réaliser mes photos, aucun ne porte une telle mention. JÄNNICK Jérémy (talk) 17:25, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Symbol keep vote.svg Keep No serious reason to delete. greenski (talk) 19:08, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Symbol keep vote.svg Keep The DR hasn't been made seriously, I see a lot of French tickets, a lot of German tickets, maybe other countries, so how many are from Switzerland exactly? Moreover, Swiss tickets are original enough to be copyrighted in Commons context? It would be better to keep them all. Jeriby (talk) 21:02, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter from which country the tickets come. It only matters from which country the background comes (or rather in which country the background first published). As the background was designed by a Swiss organisation, it seems most likely that it was first published in Switzerland. The background is part of an international standard for train tickets, and you should be able to get train tickets with this country from any train company in Europe and selected countries in Africa and Asia (although sometimes tickets with this background aren't the usual kind of tickets and sometimes tickets with this background cost a lot more than tickets with another background), but the source country of the background still defaults to Switzerland. If you buy a train ticket for an international train from any European train company, or if you go to a ticket office in one country and ask for a ticket for a train running in another country, then you will usually get a ticket printed on a paper with this background (although there are a few exceptions, especially if you want a ticket to a neighbouring country). In some countries, this background is also used for domestic tickets (possibly because it simplifies ticket printers if you only need one paper type for all tickets). --Stefan4 (talk) 22:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Then it could be a De Minimis case, because if we could delete this background, the interest of these tickets is the text above the background. And I agree with TOO, especially for French tickets. Jeriby (talk) 04:27, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Symbol keep vote.svg Keep. Most of them are computer generated black and white tickets which only contain text. Therefore they are not copyrighted and {{PD-text}} applies. --McZusatz (talk) 12:41, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Symbol keep vote.svg Keep this CIT 1996 should clearly state and give evidence to their copyright. This is the most hilarious deletion request i've ever seen in 5 years of my appearance here. All tickets are computer generated and in germany it doesn't reach the poin to be copyrighted that causes publication with PD-release. BTW, DB tickets only have CIV 80 as small notice but taht doesn#t make it a copyright or seomthing taht compares to it --Saviour1981 (talk) 09:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Symbol delete vote.svg Delete Per Stefan4. The background is an integral part of the overall appearance of the ticket, and we're not interested only in the text, but also in its layout and in the overall appearance of the ticket > thus not dm. --Eleassar (t/p) 10:12, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Kept. According to the opinions expressed. --Alan (talk) 22:04, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

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